What is up with this game!?

[Pope]

Can't remember if there's been a rant about ut2 on these f0s. If there's already been one, soz. If not, let this be the first :D.

I was thinking that this game was gonna get better as the days went by. I've been proving myself wrong over the past month or so. Granted, I've only been playing since March and I haven't seen some of the things that the rest of you have. But there are times where I'm like: "FFS man".

I remember having issues with UT1. And ranting about it. But there was something about UT1 that made it special. It wasn't something that grew on me. It was there from day 1. As it was with Unreal. I read in some thread, someone said something along the lines of "Unreal and UT1 were great games. UT2 is just a nice game." I so agree with that opinion. And the reason is that I can't find why I'm not happy with UT2. I'm gritting my teeth and trying to fall in love with it.

I understand it's a new game and that I should take it as it is. That I shouldn't be comparing it to UT1 all the time. But then there's the community that wants to change it because it doesn't like it the way it is :sick: (ref TTM). So what's it gonna be? We should like it like it is, but we should also change the things that aren't good? I think it's evident what I'm trying to say.

The main thing I don't like about UT2 is the fact that it doesn't punish reckless, offensive, trigger happy players. In UT1, if someone came after you after spawning, or when you had armor/health/weapon advantage there was no way he would win the fight. I find I get fragged by total newbs (keyboard only sort of players) with just the damn assault rifle. Or, I've got full armor and health and full weapons, a guy (like Sekh :)) comes after me with the LG and hits me 3 times in like 10secs and finishes me off.

So what's "wrong", what's causing this? I think it's 2 things.

Teh ut2 (fuX0red up?!?) netcode
For some reason (I haven't been able to find out why yet), in UT2 having a low ping is a much bigger advantage than it was for UT1. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. But up till now, if you put me against another player (less skills than me) with a 50 ping and me with my 150 and LGs, there's not a single chance that I'll win the fight. In UT1 it was highly unlikely that I would lose in a sniping duel under the same circumstances.

I've heard talk of server-side prediction and CS-like or zeroping-like netcode or something in between. Blah. I'm not even sure if I should lead my targets and by how much anymore. :annoyed:

Teh ut2 (meta)physics
OK, so is UT2 faster than UT1? I heard it's ~30% faster based on uu's. But then the player models are larger(?). Which means that they aren't that much faster since as I understand it speed is relative only to size of the players and other projectiles (maps are just surroundings). But are projectiles faster (relative to player movement of course)? All of them? I heard that the dodge movements are slower and that air control is higher.
What do I care you say. Well, the physics have a lot to do with the offensive type play that dominates UT2. The seemingly fast rockets, the larger skins allow very easy hits with hitscan weapons especially the LG which seems to be the only weapon that is of any worth if you've got a sub 50 ping (there was this guy last night that would hit me with the LG, switch to xloc, xloc behind me, switch to LG, hit me, switch to xloc, etc. Sounds like a dumb tactic but it's deadly if you take into account that he hit me 2 out of 3 times :/.) I repeat: I agree with taking the game for what it is and not comparing it with UT1. But on the other hand that means totally erasing most of the reasons I was playing UT1 to start with and not Quake (faster, more offensive) or CS (a game designed by the community to a point where it is playable even by my mother-in-law).

I have this feeling that Epic has married Quake to CS and sprinkled Unreal dust on top. Anyone can play, it's fast, it's furious, and the community loves change to the original ideas that make the marriage an even happier one.

I don't know, I fell in love with the Unreal dust but I guess the Epic folks are doing this to make a living :/. I truly doubt I'm gonna stick to this game if things don't change for the better (I sure as hell can't see how at the moment though). At least I'll have a chance to use my steering wheel more efficiently ;) :D.

[gramps]

i feel ya, Pope, in a general sort of way. i too am wondering why the hell i'm still playing this game, and i'm playing less every day because of that.

i agree with you about the sniper in UT2. it's the most overpowered and unbalanced weapon in the game, but most people suck with it too much to notice. just wait a few months when people have honed their skills, and be prepared for sniper/prim shock dogfights. :/

as for netcode, i actually think UT2 has better netcode than UT. a server at 150 ping is playable, whereas in UT this was impossible. that's just my experience of course, and i don't have to use ISDN. as for meta-physics, i dunno but it sounds like it's a simple matter of getting used to it? player models are larger? in my experience players seems smaller and blend more into the background, hence the invention of bright skins.

it's funny btw. you say UT2 does not punish fast, aggressive play, and you apparently don't seem to like that. i on the other hand prefer the fast and aggressive play, but i think UT2 is somewhat lacking in that department as well, because anybody with a LG or flak/goo can take you out easily regardless of how l33t you're moving.

but tbh, i don't think there is much that Epic can do to improve stuff other than make sure UT2004 is going to rock (which is something i will look out for with much scepticism). as long as there is online play you will have unbalanced teams, ego tripping cowboys and clueless n00bs on the servers. and that is something that will only get worse. i tell you, the concept of a pay-2-play system begins to appeal more and more, as you can be fairly certain only "serious" players will be willing to dish out the monthly cash. that said, Pope, you might wanna check out Planetside (http://www.planetside.com). :)

[Revenant]

Originally posted by Pope@May 5 2003, 03:06 PM
The main thing I don't like about UT2 is the fact that it doesn't punish reckless, offensive, trigger happy players.
In my opinion, the biggest problem is that ambushing someone is no advantage at all.

If I shoot an unsuspecting enemy with my weapon he should be dead, not damaged by 25 points and still be able to take away half of my health with an assault rifle. People become way more careful if they can be taken out in one good shot.

Unless you're sniping all the time of course, but that only works for LPB's I guess. The sniper isn't overpowered at all compared to UT, it's the other weapons that became weaker, and thus the sniper is the only decent weapon.

I think if the other weapons would have killing power like the LG, the game would be much better. The other weapons were probably weakened in the first place to reduce the spamming power of normal weapons.

I think the original UT was actually closer to CS (promoting thinking above running around shooting) and UT2 is closer to quake (jumping around and needing to hit someone with a rocket 4 times to kill him).

[TheHammer]

Sorry, but I have to laugh when I read that the LG is overpowered. Have you forgotten the UT1 version? Almost the same dmg but fires almost as fast as a mini gun? UT2k3's lightening gun requires much more skill to use cause you have to hit with it otherwise you have to wait 5 more seconds to fire again.

And then anyone can kill you with a flak cannon? Is this different from UT1 also? Last time I checked the flak cannon had even more power in ut1.

BTW TTM doesn't change the game, it just adds some tweaks to setting up a game. And a lot of the features are nothing new but are carried over from Pure in UT1, like hitsounds and such.

Anyway, I've grown to enjoy the game quite a bit. Pubs suck sure, but they also sucked in UT1 so I'm not seeing any difference in that category. Now that adren has been voted down, I think CTF is even more fun and requires solid teamwork to be successful. The only thing I really don't care for is the armor/health stacking for 1v1 play, but otherwise I think its a great game with the way its been patched. Still need some better maps tho :P

[Revenant]

What I was trying to say in my previous post, the LG isn't overpowered, the other weapons are underpowered.

This limits your fighting to 2 modes: LPB hitscan or HPB spam.

And I'm not trying to state that UT2 is a bad game, I'm trying to say it's completely different from UT, and thus, not my kind of game. :)

[Flame]

Originally posted by gramps@May 5 2003, 10:58 AM
i tell you, the concept of a pay-2-play system begins to appeal more and more, as you can be fairly certain only "serious" players will be willing to dish out the monthly cash.
I'm not sure I'd be willing to pay people to own me lol.

I don't know. Ever since the game came out all I've heard is complaints. I guess ignorance can be bliss....I never played UT1 so I really don't care how UT2K3 compares to it. I hated UT2K3 the first month I owned it. I think that was due to comparing it to Unreal Classic which is the only fps game I've ever played. The characters were larger, the LG recharge was a real downer at first, the flak was spammier then ever.....etc. (Hehe, one of the funniest things was when I swithced over to UT2K3 I had NO idea what the word "spam" meant. We didn't have that problem in Unreal.)Then once I started treating UT2K3 as it's own entity and realized all the options you have as far as game types I really got hooked.

I'm not what you'd call a real serious gamer I suppose. I don't disect games/maps/codes/blah blah because I don't understand any of it well enough and don't care to. All I do know is what games I enjoy and which ones I don't. Lucky for me that it's that simple. :)

[gramps]

Originally posted by TheHammer@May 5 2003, 06:49 PM
Sorry, but I have to laugh when I read that the LG is overpowered. Have you forgotten the UT1 version? Almost the same dmg but fires almost as fast as a mini gun? UT2k3's lightening gun requires much more skill to use cause you have to hit with it otherwise you have to wait 5 more seconds to fire again..
heh yeah i see what you mean. i guess what i mean is what Revenant has explained, the other weapons are too weak. yes, the UT sniper was very powerful, but so were the other weapons. in UT2 it's different to me.

my main gripe is that whenever you're hit by any hitscan weapon you warp all over the place, causing a lot of disorientation. very very annoying. perhaps it's just me having this problem tho.

[gramps]

Originally posted by Flame@May 5 2003, 06:57 PM
I'm not sure I'd be willing to pay people to own me lol.
same here. :)

but if you have fun playing you will become better every time you play. tbh p2p has too many disadvantages for me to seriously consider it. besides, Planetside will be the regular price in the store, and then they expect me to pay $10 a month additionally? i won't go with that, just out of principle. :)

[TheHammer]

I guess I'm in the camp that finds the weapons very balanced for ut2k3. I have a lot more fun engaged in battles cause weapon selection becomes much more important. The battles are more tactical in my mind. Keep in mind I'm not dissing UT1, I had fun playing that game too, but you could pretty much stick to one weapon and rule with it no matter what the situation, with the exception of the goo gun and the ripper.

As far as pay to play, I don't see myself moving to that model. Most of those games reward more based on playing time than actualy skill. What I like about ut2k3 and other games like it is that once you connect, you start off just as good as anyone else, the only thing separating you from others is your individual skill, not how many levels you've advanced, what rare magic items you've found, cloned, etc. :P

[Peregrine]

I love it. It feels more "quak-ish", but I still love it. UT2K3 owns me.


I do have complaints, though;

1) People bitching about Weapon Balance. When did this become such an issue? Has everyone forgot the days of the SINGLE-PLAYER game? Every new weapon you found was more powerfull than the last. Thought it was SUPPOSED to be that way. I LIKE it that way.

2) The constant whining about Spam. I'm real tired of that. I'm sorry, it's not a HITSCAN-ONLY kind of game for the anti-spammers. Nearly every weapon is 'spam-able'. Learn to spam or play something else. LOL It really annoys me when I get a good shot on someone...not SPAM at all, and they yell "SPAMMER". The Flak Cannon rocks...okay on some maps it is TOO much, but hey, it's part of the game. Mini rox, it can be spammy. The link is a great under-used weapon, it can be quite spammy. Even SEC-SHOCK can be spammy as hell. "If you can't stand the spam, stick to sniper-arena".

3) Pub quality. Yuck. Tired of unbalanced teams. Happens too much. Noone switches, enough, and it's really sad to see it on the REV server. Saw a lot of that this weekend. (Flame I was trying to switch in that one game this weekend, but teams were full and I couldn't). Seriously, thank god for this clan. If not for this clan, and some of the matches we play, I'd think I was the best damn UT'er out there.

4) I'm disturbed by the apparent lack of normal wpn servers. There aren't many out there AT ALL. I think UT has more than 2K3!! :( Sad that MUTANT is doing so poorly. Not surprised that DDOM is almost dead already.

[Swedix]

Originally posted by TheHammer@May 5 2003, 05:49 PM
Sorry, but I have to laugh when I read that the LG is overpowered.
You forgot 2 things.
When you get hit by the LG you are like stunned for a short time.
You also have the fast weapon switch in UT2003.
This in combanition makes it sort of 'overpowered'.
Hit someone with the LG, switch to another weapon and shot, switch back to LG wich now is loaded.

I now it's a part of the game, but why does everybody complain about the mini's lockdown? Now you can disable it on the servers.

I have never liked weapon that kills in one shot. Same goes for the superweapon.
I like a good fight, that's what makes a game fun and that's what I want UT2003 to be.
There are already many other games out there where you hide and sneak and try to kill your enemy before he even see you.

[Scumgrief]

I love UT2003. I played UT1 all the time, however, never played online. Got to where I warmed up on Inhuman bots & then played Godlike for a while. Only other UT1 experience was the occasional LAN w/some friends.

Anyway, after a long FPS history (Wolfenstein, Doom 1 & 2, Blood, DukeNukem3D, Quake 1, 2, & 3 [played Q2 competitively for a while on Heat.net], Unreal, UT1... did I miss any LOL), I found UT2003 to be a breath of fresh air. I never got off on the realistic FPS games like CS or SoF, tho Return to Castle Wolfenstein single player was pretty good. They're neat, but I like what I call "Kung-Fu in Space" action - high flying, fast paced, laser-gun madness. UT2003 fits the bill perfectly.

As far as weapon balance, Pere's right - the first few weapons you get are supposed to suck... unless you get lucky & spawn next to a good one. Half the point of the game is to tuck your a$$ in and get moving to the good stuff, then start the beat-downs. I think I kill more peeps w/the BIO than I do w/the LG... most all the weapons in UT2003 give you a good chance against any of the other weapons.

My only gripe about the game is that everyone and their brother seems to want to put weird little mutators on their servers. Most of it is crap, and with 56k connection, most of the time I don't want to dl a worthless eye candy mutator that weighs in at 5MB just to play on a standard map.

BTW - wtf is the TTM mutator all about? I guess lotsa people like it, but it changes me crosshair, weapon hit sounds (ping!... yuck... where's my blood and grunts???), and other shtuff... add to that it seems I have to re-set my preferences in the TTM menu each time I play on a different server... maybe I'm wrong about that last part... anyway, TTM isn't on the top of my favs list.

[Sekhmet]

Scum: you can press F7 to bring up the TTM screen, and enable or disable a lot of things :). So you can configure things like hitsounds or crosshair that way if you don't like the way it changes your gameplay :).

I like UT2k3, but I agree with Peregrine's complaints. I don't see the complaining about spam much though... but I don't think there's much you can do about it, UT had these problems too.
I'm a low-ping player, so I use hitscan fairly much. But that's my style ever since I got cable, I was like that in UT too, or trying too :rofl:.

Anyway, it's frustrating when noone switches teams when it's necessary (I change teams multiple times in a game sometimes) or when I'm having the usual bad aim day :P. I've had a short period where I played UT almost exclusively, and it shows when you want to start playing UT2k3 again :/.
Now that I can hit more than some weeks back, it's a lot better, imo a lot of the fun depends on how I play myself.

What I like about this game is the fast weapon switching, which makes it easier to adapt to what your opponent was. The weapons in UT are more "multifunctional", although they do have their weak and strong points, in this you can't just play with one weapon. If someone gets close with a flak cannon when you only have the shock rifle, it's going to be hard to win, at least when that person has some skill. But when you have the rocket launcher, you can switch to that, and switch back.. this gives fights an extra dimension, you could switch in UT but it's not as practical.

What this game needs is some good maps.. I can see people get tired of playing the same maps all over again that are actually nice to play :).

[Pope]

It's exactly as Rev says. It's that the LG is overpowered compared to the other weapons. In UT1 if you were not an lpb you could at least combo someone across the map or stick 6 r0x where the sun don't shine, or even spam flak like mad. In UT2 a combo doesn't hurt old ladies, the r0x are a joke and I think I haven't yet managed to hit someone with flak in the 2 or so months that I've been playing.

Also, the physics have somehow allowed for the LG to be a close combat weapon. I can count the times I've been fragged in 3 years of UT1 at close range by a sniper rifle on the fingers of mah 2 hands. I thought the sniper was supposed to be a long range weapon?!

It could be that weapon usage evolves into something interesting, as it did in UT1 where everyone used only the RL in the beginning. But, I very much doubt it. I mean what can counter the 1337 xloc/LG tactics this dude was using the other night (other than doing the same thing)?

[Sekhmet]

The combo is still very powerful :O_o:..
Yes the lightning is a good weapon, but it's not overpowered for me.
It all depends on the situation anyway. Weapon switching is everything.

[Azmo]

What makes UT2k3 a mediocre game for me, is a combination of really poor stock maps, spammy weapons, unbalanced teams in the vast majority of games played, and adrenaline.

Most of the stock maps are far too straighforward to create any interesting gameplay or flow. You usually just get into the base, and try to get to the flag as fast as possible because a steady stream of semi-aimed projectiles (spam) is draining your health. You then grab the flag and die, because two enemies just spawned at the flak. If you do manage to survive and get out of the flagroom, you've usually got one or two exit routes to chose from, past at least one choke point where the entire enemy team will be waiting for you with more spam. :cry:

Did I mention spam? Oh yeah, I did. Well, if you think spam isn't a problem: you're wrong. The reason I'm this blunt is simple: I've been improving the art of spam since 2001, and in the last 1 1/2 year it has become my main tactic. So I know what I'm talking about, ok? :P In UT2, the firing rates of nearly all the weapons are too high, which reduces the urgency to hit something to nearly zero. Imagine this: You've just respawned next to the LG, and you're on the tail fo the EFC all by yourself. As he spots you, you switch to the LG and aim..... the feeling that you have (or I usually have, cuz I suck with the LG) is something like "I need to make this shot, or I'm dead and they cap". That's the feeling you should have (to a lesser extent) with all weapons. The only worry I have with any other weapon, is that my finger might slip from my fire button...

Unbalanced teams are a common occurence in all FPS games nowadays. And this problem will only get worse unless someone comes up with a solution. I don't think Pay 2 Play on the gamelevel will work for shooters, because there will always be people who enjoy dominating on public servers. Maybe a semi-private network of clan servers would work, where only people who are friends of the clans get the password. Maybe a P2P solution for such a network would help things, I don't know.

Adrenaline on multiplayer servers only increases any imbalance between the players or teams, since it gives a bonus to the stronger player or team. :O_o: :tdown:

After playing UT2 for some months, I got the impression Epic have increased the speed at which the server processes the game (more ticks?), and have reduced player movement speed to compensate. So now it feels like you're trudging through treacle all the time. Some months ago I played several games of UT, and even though the game ran slower, it all felt a lot smoother. The general gam flow of UT is much more of a rush, whereas UT2 gives you a good idea of how life will be when you're 90 years old and need to walk all the way to the loo. :crosseyed:

Oh and weapon balance: each weapon should have a purpose, a type of situation where this weapon is better than most others. But no weapon should be best (or preferered) in too many situations. The problem here is, however, that the way weapons are used changes over time, so it's hard to predict how and when they will be used.

The idea of 'progressive weapons' does not apply to multiplayer shooters IMO. When you spawn, you need to be able to power up to a reasonable strength within a couple of seconds. There is no 'progression' to award; you start from scratch every time you respawn, and if you manage to achieve something (like a killing spree), you are good enough not to need any form of award. So all weapons should be a viable 'first option', and no weapon should give a serious advantage over players who only have one weapon (which they just picked up after respawning).

[Pope]

Originally posted by Sekhmet@May 5 2003, 10:34 PM
The combo is still very powerful :O_o:..
Yes the lightning is a good weapon, but it's not overpowered for me.
It all depends on the situation anyway. Weapon switching is everything.
The combo is very powerful compared to what? An assault rifle round? Most of the time opponents walk away from a combo and still have enough juice to frag you with that assault rifle.

Weapon switching doesn't mean anything if you have a high hit efficiency with the LG. Unless you call switching to mini or rockets to finish someone with 30 health off, weapon switching.

I've played this game with low ping and even though my hitscan skills are way low, I found that you do not need any other weapon really, other than a finishing off one. It is a joke to hit someone with it, opponents are like sides of barns when you're holding it.

It doesn't depend on the situation. Why? Well, we already said it. The LG was designed for long range, but it's being used like a flak cannon as well. When I first started playing I'd get into close fights and the other guy would switch to the LG during the fight and I would go like "ROFL man, this guy is panicking his pants off. He's switched to the LG - ROFL!". Then they would pull off a hit and I'd go "erhmmm... WTF?!?!". Now I've gotten used to it.

Things may change but again, I very much doubt it. It's no wonder really why more than 50% of servers are IG. Now I see... :sick:

Normally, I would say to mahself "yeah, so the game is f00Xed. Stop bitchin' dude. Adapt. Don't bust everyone's ballz about it." Well, this time round, and for some reason, I don't really feel like it. That's why I'm saying that this game is mediocre compared to UT1 and THAT'S where comparison between the two is inevitable :/.

[Pope]

I'd just like to clear up one thing. There are 2 'types' of speed.

One has to do with the time it takes to get from point A to B which is certainly higher than UT1 since you've got all those dodge moves.

The other has to do with how fast you're moving compared to your size an to the projectiles of the weapons. Imagine an ant strafing at the speed of a human being. Imagine trying to hit it with a stone as opposed to a higher speed projectile or even hitscan. You cannot tell how fast you are moving in this sense. You cannot just say UT1 characters were faster than UT2 unless you know this for a fact. For instance, it's easy to say that you're slower compared to the rockets but faster compared to the secondary shock or xloc. How long it takes to go from Face tower blue to red (without dodging) depends on how big the map builder made it.

[KGB]

My computer chugs on some maps, so that's no fun. (Athlon 900)

The maps just don't seem to have it. (Some of the DD maps are pretty good, but no one plays that.) The maps have too much stuff and not enough grandeur I guess.

I keep trying but the game just doesn't seem to tickle my nads.

:spin:

[WebSlinger]

ut2003? I love it... it was better than "Cats." I'm going to play it again, and again!

[Robot TinMan]

Well, all I can add to this is, I don't really care much for the game. Sure, it's "ok" when U play friends and so on, but I think that feeling has more to do with that Ur actually playing someone U like playing against/with. Not the actual game itself. I know we shouldn't compare this to UT (I still call UT for UT, since 2k3 ain't UT, hehe), but no matter how hard I try, I still compare the 2 games. When I started playing UT, I was hooked the very first minute. That wasn't the deal with 2k3. Far from. I've played it for several months now, but it's just not that funny as it used to be. I guess You all can tell, since I'm not online to have my butt kicked as often as I was before (in UT). ;)

It's very hard for me to say exactly what's wrong with it, but it's just this feeling that isn't there. :/

I remember late nights DM:ing in UT, with Gramps (I kinda hated DM in UT, but I still enjoyed our fights. Go figure, hehe)

The weapons are just "weird". The rl used to be my best weapon, now I'm not even sure I'll get one hit on my opponent in a close combat.
And all these freaky moves just make me wanna scream.
You're figthing a guy and all of a sudden he makes quadruple spin, hits a wall, flies to the roof, spins off the roof and land behind you and kill You with a fully loaded alt.goo. "Uhh...hmm.....first he was like...and then he was over there and......then..uhh....WHAT HAPPENED?!"

Like I said earlier; the feeling just isn't there anymore.

[CrazyCougar]

When I first played UT I also downloaded the Q3 demo. So I had both demo's on my computer and I played them both at the same time. I then went out and bought UT. It was that simple. It was just better. The bots were better, the weapons were better, the game pace was better.

If I had to do the same thing with UT2k3 I likely wouldn't have bought it. The game pace is faster the bots are pretty much the same... and the weapons are about the same all things considered. However this time it's the maps. The maps suck. The movement is questionable at times however the maps just suck...

You can really get into the UT map environments. In UT2k3 you spent most of your time looking for a hard to see oppenent. Then you spend the rest of the time trying not to get stuck on the eye candy. UT is all about the maps. UT2k3 is all about the graphics. The weapons aren't that different and they do take getting used too. I still think the Rocket laucher should have kept the grenades. It just worked. ;)

Anyways, it was an instant like for UT when I first tried it. UT2k3 was a pain in the ass because I hated the maps. You really have to play them a lot in order to find any value in them. Which is why it takes 3 months+ just to appreciate the game.

If I was going to fix the sniper rifle I would make it the long range weapon it was designed to be. Any shot fired in a melee/short range situation would only deal half damage. Just like the other weapons. So instead of a 70 hit bodyshot you'd get a 35 hit bodyshot. You'd have to get the headshot in order to make it worthwhile. That would balance the LG more. It would then be nerfed like the rest of the weapons. I'd also fix the shield issue. Shields should reduce damage not prevent it.

Anyways, I haven't played UT since I upgraded my computer. In a way I'm avoiding it since I know it's better. ;)

[Peregrine]

Originally posted by Azmo@May 5 2003, 03:03 PM
The idea of 'progressive weapons' does not apply to multiplayer shooters IMO. When you spawn, you need to be able to power up to a reasonable strength within a couple of seconds.
I agree with many points made, but I dis-agree with this.
If you aren't gonna' play with progressive weapons, you may as well just spawn with them all, then, no?

[Pope]

OK. I'll stop whining for a few days. I'll start playing with just the LG for a few weeks, become an hpb IG h0 on NW servers :rolleyes2:
Maybe as soon as I get that down and be happy with the weapon balance then I'll start having problems with the maps :blink: :). If that happens I'm goin' back to UT 8).

[Azmo]

Originally posted by Peregrine+May 6 2003, 09:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peregrine @ May 6 2003, 09:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Azmo@May 5 2003, 03:03 PM
The idea of 'progressive weapons' does not apply to multiplayer shooters IMO. When you spawn, you need to be able to power up to a reasonable strength within a couple of seconds.
I agree with many points made, but I dis-agree with this.
If you aren't gonna' play with progressive weapons, you may as well just spawn with them all, then, no?[/b][/quote]
Actually, a case could be made for spawning with all of them... it probably wouldn't work with the current weapons though (spam). Maybe you'd need a different style of maps as well, dunno.

And don't get me wrong: I fully support the idea of progressive weapons, but only for single player (linear) games, like Unreal, Half-Life, Quake, etc. In these games you face tougher opposition as you get closer to the end goal, and need stronger weapons to have a chance of reaching that goal.

However, in online gametypes like DM, TDM, CTF, DD, BR, you start from scratch every time you respawn (which can be as often as every ten seconds). The only thing that might count as 'progress' here is travelling from the spawn point to midfield. Moving into the enemy base would be further 'progress', but right now anyone can pick up any weapon from its spawn point, so putting the strong weapons in the enemy base would completely destroy any form of weapon progression, because then you could once again pick up the strongest weapons inside your own base, close to the spawn points.

So under the current circumstances, you'd end up with maps where the weaker weapons are located close to the flag (all spawn points need to be relatively close to the flag as well, because otherwise players would sometimes spawn very close to weapons they haven't 'earned'). With all the strong weapons on midfield, controlling this area would become an important factor in winning a game.

Then whichever team managed to control midfield long enough, would gain a significant advantage over the other team, as most of their players would be equipped with the strongest weapons, and the enemy would only have access to weaker weapons. When the stronger team launched its attack, the defenders would need to hold them off with inferior weapons. Even worse: if they got killed, they would most likely only have access to the weakest weapon upgrades, because the enemy would already have invaded the outskirts of their base, where stronger weapons are located. So you'd end up with a system that is very vulnerable to complete domination of the game by one team.

That's why I'm saying that in multiplayer gametypes all weapons should have an advantage in one or two types of situation, but should have a damage ratio that does not make one or more weapons a lot stronger than the rest. Due to the nature of these gametypes, this would only result in amplifying any difference in skill between players or teams, and could lead to a situation where the vast majority of games played end up being completely unfair. :(

Can you explain to me how you think UT2k3 currently makes use of weapon progression? Because TBH, I don't see anything that might resemble it in the current weapons and maps...

[Peregrine]

Wow. Let me finish digesting all that.....



Az = teh winnar
I can't argue with that logic.

[CrazyCougar]

I see having no weapons when you spawn as being a penalty for dying. If you've ever played a warmup in TTM you'd know how nice it is to just run after your objective without having to worry about weapons. However there is no penalty for dying that way. You just have to catch upto the flagcarrier again and use any and all weapons to kill them. Having to select your weapons after you spawn makes it more strategic. You could just run after the EFC and try and telefrag them or you could detour to the LG so that you have a powerful weapon to kill them with. It is a progression of sorts. You have to choose which path your going to take when you spawn. You don't have to collect every weapon however the longer you stay alive the more likely it will be that you have all the weapons.

[cryco]

UT2k3 is fun, once you get the hang of it.
It'll NEVER EVER EVER BE as magical as UT was. NEVER. It was something so new and cool, that you could not help but love UT.
UT2k3 is a decent game, and i have found that the only time i will enjoy a game is clan scrims or those rare balanced pub matches.
Maps still suck (for the most part).
That's it. IF you can;t get used to it after playing it a lot, then, you'll never like it. If you try to squeeze some of the UT magic out of it, you'll simply be dissapointed.
Like you said, learn lg, primary shock and get used to switching weapons quickly. You'll enjoy it more.
I'm basically playing UT2k3 until something better comes along that Ci can start playing. No joke.
2 years into UT, i was still logging 2-3 hours per day. Ut2k3, i'll be lucky if I play 1 hour a day, and I'm home most of the day (unemployed).

[radium]

Originally posted by Robot TinMan@May 6 2003, 08:31 AM
Sure, it's "ok" when U play friends and so on, but I think that feeling has more to do with that Ur actually playing someone U like playing against/with. Not the actual game itself.
i hafta agree here.
i mean, i love ut2k3. but when im playing against people i've never seen before it doesnt have the same effect as when im playing with mates. it is a great shame, cause quite often i load up ut, go to the buddies browser and theres no one else playin. most of the time this happens i end up leavin the game then start starring at the wall :O_o:
Although on the odd occasion i can have an enjoyable game with strangers, just not as often :/

[Sekhmet]

Agreed cryco.. sure, call me nostalgic or whatever, but at least I still play UT for fun every once in a while. Teams may suck sometimes, I probably play worse than I ever did (since I got cable), but it's a lot of fun.
I play UT2k3 as much as I do because Ci plays it, not just because I like it, I would hardly play it if it wasn't for the opportunity to play it in an organised (fun) way, matches.

It's a decent game, I still would have bought it I think, and played it.. but not as much as I do now.

[TheHammer]

I keep reading about the "nostalgic" feeling of the game and I get that when I think of the first time I played quake2 on a voodoo card at a friends house. I went out the next day and got the game and a card for myself and just played it constantly, being awed by the graphics :) Now those were some good times ;)

[Pope]

Yeah, I remember playing PGA Tour Golf back in 92 on mah 386SX/16 r1g :smoking: Only game I've played where I could watch TV at the same time :D.

[Peregrine]

I was a huge Quake2 junkie. Played at home, played at work. I swear I played every mod that ever was for that game.

[Robot TinMan]

Originally posted by radium@May 8 2003, 12:03 AM
it is a great shame, cause quite often i load up ut, go to the buddies browser and theres no one else playin. most of the time this happens i end up leavin the game then start starring at the wall :O_o:
Rog that. I'm not kidding when I say I never hit any pubs unless there are people I know on the server. Compare that to UT, when I actually played pubs, even with total strangers.
The UT magic just isn't there.

There's just "too much" happening. Too much of everything. Don't ask me to explain, 'cause I'm not able to. Is it the "great" graphics "disturbing"? The phreaky jo-jo jumps? "Weird" guns? You tell me......

Like I said, even though I'm not fond of 2k3 at all, I still can somewhat enjoy it, when I play You guys or anyone else that I know.

[CrazyCougar]

I'm not sure about the Euro scene but the NA is pretty close these days. You basically add the clan tags off all the top clans and the games tend to be better. You still get the unbalanced teams however but it's easier to find other good sports out there. I've managed to find a few GG's where the teamwork was a step above pub play and the attitudes were actually respectable for once.

That being said... lately I've been aliasing. I don't always want to run into people I know on the pubs. I've been trying to work on my LG and hitscan lately and I'd rather do it anonymously. ;) Then again I still use my buddy list to find games... I just don't advertise who I am... although a few people likely know my current alias now.

FragBU's are also an odd event. I doubt I'll be playing in them too often as the teamplay always seems to be lacking when it matters. Then again perhaps that's just my perception... :uptosomething:

[Pope]

Thx to mah new drive, I copied my UT (UnrealTournament) folder from a backup machine where it was gathering dust since March when I first started playing UT2. Notice: the first thing I did was install UT1 (granted, it's installation needs less time, but still...).

I got on this server and started throwing gernades around and using primary mini :eek: Naturally, I got slaughtered (something I'm not used to in UT1 :P). The difference is that I actually liked it. I knew what was going on. I knew why I was getting fragged. I knew that the guy that got me actually knew what he was doing and his frag was justified. No shots out of the blue.

All in all, a faster game but a slower one at the same time. Faster in that you feel that you're moving at a higher speed compared to your surroundings. Slower in that the projectiles move with less speed so when you get fragged, you've actually seen how it came about. In the same manner of speaking, you have to be more intelligent to frag someone because of the low speed of the projectiles. Of course, the hitscan weapons in the hands of a low sens player with an equally low ping are another story.

The most important thing though, is that I was having so much fun. I managed to press F10 at some point in between maps at 0200AM only to restart the game 5mins later for another round. They've gone totally bonkers with UT2, I don't know what they were drinking and/or smoking. As a friend said: "I can't wait for UT2k4, can't till I get my joystick out of the closet" :rofl: :rofl:

http://carpeimperium.com/~pope/thefingers.gif EPIC YOU F'N SUCK!! http://carpeimperium.com/~pope/thefingers.gif

[Peregrine]

I fired up UT the other day.
Couldn't believe how well I did. Led my team (in a loss) but it sure was still fun! Nice too!! I used to be lucky to get 30 FPS in UT on my old rig. Now I'm pulling a CONSTANT 70. NICE! ;)

Agreed, Coug. What's up with FRAGBU??? I swear I have seen games there MORE unbalanced than ANY pub....and noone seems to care/notice until it's been 5 straight 10-0 games. Sad. I expect better from BUF'ers.

[Bishop]

90% of UAK plays Planetside now. We have the few non-PS UAK'ers joining the voice chat to remind people that there's a 2k3 match 30 minutes overdue, and could they please quit PS to play?

"k, uh-huh, sure. Right after I'm done clearing this courtyard. Be there in 5"

20 minutes later, they're still there.


I'm one of the biggest 2k3 bashers around. I'm good at the game, it runs beautifully on my machine, and I pretty much detest it in almost every way (except for the shock combo sound, that tickles me pink :) )

I play UT over 2k3 any day, any time. Here's the real kicker: I play PLANETSIDE over UT every single time!

Pay-to-play games are just the inevitable. Companies are realizing it's a viable means of income. Besides, 12$ a month is nothing, I'll just go to the movies one less time a month (spend those 2 hours playing PS instead).

Besides, if I play PS, I get to run over all the guys from High Voltage with a tank :rofl:

[gramps]

i played the PS open beta for a week or so. personally i didn't like it too much. yes it's massive, yes there are vehicles, but the thing that bothers me most is that there doesn't seem to be any goal in the game.

you take a base after much fighting, go to sleep with the knowledge of a job well done, only to wake up and find your precious base has already been taken over by another empire. so now you can start all over again. it's impossible to ever "win" in this game.

also, PS doesn't really leave any room for individual achievement. in fact, a fight over a base is almost always dictated by numbers. if you have the bigger army you'll get the base, that's all it takes. at least with CTF you have something to fight for, and i'm really missing that in PS.

not to mention you gotta pay 50 euros for the game, and on top of that there's still the 13 euros a month in order to be able to play it. perhaps p2p is the future, but i hope it'll be a very long way off still. just my 2 cents.

atm i'm waiting for Tribes3 to arrive. not that i have big hopes for it, but it looks like the only multiplayer game of the moment that could sparkle my interest. meanwhile UT2 will just have to do ...

[Gunker]

Hey bish, what/which PS server(s) do you play on?

[spineblaZe]

Originally posted by Peregrine@May 5 2003, 11:28 AM
I love it. It feels more "quak-ish", but I still love it. UT2K3 owns me.


I do have complaints, though;

1) People bitching about Weapon Balance. When did this become such an issue? Has everyone forgot the days of the SINGLE-PLAYER game? Every new weapon you found was more powerfull than the last. Thought it was SUPPOSED to be that way. I LIKE it that way.

2) The constant whining about Spam. I'm real tired of that. I'm sorry, it's not a HITSCAN-ONLY kind of game for the anti-spammers. Nearly every weapon is 'spam-able'. Learn to spam or play something else. LOL It really annoys me when I get a good shot on someone...not SPAM at all, and they yell "SPAMMER". The Flak Cannon rocks...okay on some maps it is TOO much, but hey, it's part of the game. Mini rox, it can be spammy. The link is a great under-used weapon, it can be quite spammy. Even SEC-SHOCK can be spammy as hell. "If you can't stand the spam, stick to sniper-arena".

3) Pub quality. Yuck. Tired of unbalanced teams. Happens too much. Noone switches, enough, and it's really sad to see it on the REV server. Saw a lot of that this weekend. (Flame I was trying to switch in that one game this weekend, but teams were full and I couldn't). Seriously, thank god for this clan. If not for this clan, and some of the matches we play, I'd think I was the best damn UT'er out there.

4) I'm disturbed by the apparent lack of normal wpn servers. There aren't many out there AT ALL. I think UT has more than 2K3!! :( Sad that MUTANT is doing so poorly. Not surprised that DDOM is almost dead already.
I couldn't agree more. I love this game. I have been playing orignal UT for a long time, but I still like 2k3 better.

The ONLY thing I don't like about this game is the bitching and whining. What Peregrine said was perfect. I especially hate people always saying "BS" or "SPAM" when they get killed. Do you really think you can't die? OMG SPAM GHEY LAMER BS. Try to have FUN when you play!!! Giving a player a NS is way cooler than "BS." A little maturity goes a long way. :D

And the weapon balance complaints have no premise whatsoever, ESPEICALLY if you consider UT's weapons.
Sometimes I think all the people that complain about this game, particularily weapon balance, NEVER played UT.

In UT a point blank Primary Flak hit did 192 damage.

Rockets did 112 damage A PIECE, and you could load 6. SIX!!

Bio Rifle could kill TWO fully shielded players in one hit, 400+ damage.

Mini Gun was INSANELY powerful (my fav weapon, i loved it :D )

Sniper did same almost the same damage but shot TWICE as fast.

Please, don't cry about UT2K3 weapon balance. It's not Spam. It is the best, most unique system ever created in a FPS. I would hate to see it changed. If you want to whine about a spammy weapon with too much damage, go cry about the 672 damage the Rocket Launcher in UT could do. I LOVE THIS GAME :D :D :D

[Sekhmet]

Yes, but UT rockets are a lot slower, its reload time is slower.. and the balance is there because every weapon kills (extremely) fast.

[Pope]

Basically, what Sekh said.

But that's not my main worry, the weapon balance. It's the whole thing. UT2 is built to be playable by a lot less skilled players. At the moment it's very difficult to feel that you've beaten someone fair and square because of your higher skill (or lost to someone because he's better). It's not only the design of the weapons and their balance. It's a combination of all the factors that make up this game. It may be an invention, it may be the best fps that's ever been designed and developed. The fact is:
People are just not playing it.

[Scumgrief]

It is unfortunate that there's not a huge amount of people playing UT2003. I tend to think it's the fact that most people don't have an awesome rig to play it on... at least that's what is holding back friends of mine from playing it.

Anyway, I'm always up for a GG. I see spineblaZe and Peregrine out there a LOT, and always love to hook up for a battle. You might not be playing in a 16-32 player game with carnage at every step, but there are some pretty decent 8-12 player games out there most every night... just have to stick with it and look for the games, and not limit yourself to only one gametype if you can help it.

[Peregrine]

I agree with Scummy's 'awesome rig' comment. Still many many folks out there running a 500 MHZ with a GF2, believe it or not.

As for me, I like this game MORE everytime I play it.

[Pope]

'Awesome rig' comon, you guys forgot the rig that UT1 needed to be considered playable. I was playing with a P2 350 and a Viper 550 getting 20 fps (EVERYTHING off @ 640x480) 6 months into the game and the servers were already in the 1000's. That comp was less than 1 year old when the game was released ffs.

I like this game more everytime I play it too but then again you like the wife your tribe made you marry more every day also :ashamed:

[Peregrine]

No, Pope, I haven't forgot using a 233 MHZ + Voodoo Banshee + 56K modem to play UT.

However, if UT wasn't the insanely incredible game that it was I may have moved on to something else. Since UT2 isn't anything new or earth shattering, really, than I might move on to something my PC can handle. Like BF1942.

[janiwashere]

Originally posted by Peregrine@Jun 14 2003, 07:18 PM
No, Pope, I haven't forgot using a 233 MHZ + Voodoo Banshee + 56K modem to play UT.

I had a pentium 233MHz + voodoo2 and some ppl said that it's not good enough to play Unreal1! (although it ran fine).
But playing UT with it :O_o:

[Pope]

K, I've been using the hitscan weapons a lot more. You know what? The first weapon I go after upon respawn now is the LG!! Imagine that, and I got a 120-150 ping. It's a friggin joke to hit someone with it! It's hilarious.

Also, the funniest thing is that I pull off shots that are 100% off target! Never happened to me before. I'm the 'ffs' and '???' guy but up until now, it was cause I was getting fragged outta nowhere. Now, I pull off shots with the hand of God, so there's 'ffs' and '???' going the other way too. :rofl:

What is up with this game? :lol:

[Sekhmet]

heh I pull off LtG shots on American servers with 160-180 ping.. it's funny when you hit em :crosseyed:.

[Bishop]

Originally posted by Gunker@Jun 7 2003, 03:24 PM
Hey bish, what/which PS server(s) do you play on?
Gunker:

I play on Emerald, as the New Conglomerate, player name: Hypocrite

Gramps:

I'm not sure where you played in beta, or whether you were in a good squad, but there's a TON of skill and teamwork required in this game. A good squad of 10 players can take on more than 4 times their number, given the right circumstances. Good tactics allows you to decide those circumstances, to make sure they're in your favor.

PS also uses the Cone of Fire system, similar to quite a few popular games out there. It's more realistic than most fps, and moves the game away from "twitch aim". Cover, crossfires, positioning, and surprise make a bigger difference.

As for no point...sure. There actually is an end goal to the game, but it's near impossible to do (and not implemented in the game functions yet). If you can get a continent lock on all three continents connected to a Faction Sanctuary, Sanctuary strikes are enabled. It will be possible to eliminate an entire faction from a server. If it goes down to one faction, server gets reset.

How many times have you played on a pub, won the map, and played the next map, and the next, and the next, and the next...etc etc. There's no point in that either. Or a UT/2k3 ladder. You play, you win, you move up. Eventually, you reach #1. Then what? You defend, you defend, you defend, you defend, you defend, and so on.

Think of each base cap attempt as a FPS map. If you take the base, you win, and you move on to the next base. If you lose, you try again. Tomorrow, you might connect to a different UT/2k3 server, yet play the same map?

BTW, Good PS vids: http://www.malvision.com

I typically hate war games, and MMO's in general. I hate the time required to get involved, I hate walking from place to place, and it isn't fast paced enough for me. Yet somehow, a futuristic FPS MMO has completely sucked me in. My Jackhammer Auto-Shotgun will tear your face off and hand it to the guy behind you. :uptosomething:

[Gunker]

Ah, I play as a VS on emerald, but i've been playing NC on Markov for awhile, was thinking of switching, because i always get way more kills as an NC...

[Fumanchu]

All I read was Gunker's post and I was so lost :)